Software Is Becoming Marketing

Does your experience with AI sound a little something like this? So I want to talk about this new concept that software is becoming marketing. So really, the question is, what if your product is your best ad? So this isn't necessarily anything new, but I think with the proliferation of anything that you can vibe code now,

almost your software becomes the lead magnet. So it used to be back in the day, your lead magnet could be your, it could be like a email, like a PDF, right? It could be a PDF. It could be something like a quiz or something like that.

But now you actually get software. So when I look at Neil's software, Uber suggests, I look at that as a software that's kind of becoming marketing in its own right. Same thing with Answer to Public. With ClickFlow, with Carrot, we kind of look at the same on our end.

And the cool thing is within each piece of software, every time you have an interesting feature that you launch, each feature becomes a marketable moment. So like Clay, they're launching like every week, I think they're doing like a launch of a new feature with their product. And it's something that people are asking for, but they're putting a lot of fanfare around it. And so we actually have a mutual friend.

He was always launching one marketable moment per month. I think now you can probably launch one marketable moment per week. And so I think software now is becoming marketing. And I think the job of someone like Anil or myself is we can prototype something and get it 60, 70% there, but then you can hand it off and then go from there, right?

And then if you do have a product out there and there's a repo, you can just submit a bunch of pull requests and then your developers can decide if whatever you're building is garbage or not.

Yeah, no. Look, I'm with you. I think you can end up creating a lot of marketing just through products. I started doing this back in the day, maybe around seven, eight years ago with NP Digital.

And the whole premise was we're going to release software. At that time, it was Ubersess. We bought it for, I think it was like $120,000. Yeah. Plus or minus, but somewhere around there.

I spent millions of the product over years after, so not instantly. That was of choice because it was gaining traction. Keep in mind, everything's way cheaper now because of AI. And we didn't just release marketable moments.

We release product for free when our competitors were charging for it. That made it much more marketable because everyone wanted to share something that was free. Whether it's better, whether it's worse, whether it's the same, free goes a very long way. And I think doing that with product is super effective as long as it's pretty much free.

If you release a marketable moment every single week, that's a new feature, but people had to pay more for it. It doesn't mean that you can't still use it and generate buzz around it. We just see it not working as well. Yeah.

I think that, I mean, Back in the day, and back in the day was not that long ago, but in SaaS you caught a product-led growth, right? Where you have a freemium feature and then you can upsell, cross-sell and grow accounts. So if you don't have a free version into your product, it's not going to be that helpful because there's too much friction to get people in the door.

And so when I look at ClickFlow, our version of ClickFlow right now, we have an API and an MCP for it. There's a free version people can opt in for and the agents can find it, right? But more importantly, we just launched something and we kind of look at this as like a new AEO SEO autopilot system of 2026.

And so what it does is like, let's use this podcast as an example. It will ingest the spikes from this podcast. It'll also use some skills and I'll look at what's happening in my topic, for example. We can look at even some of my competitors as well, look at what they're putting out.

And then it'll combine with our ClickFlow API MCP. It can also pull in your Google Analytics. It can pull in a lot of these different connectors. And then what happens is it starts to draft things top of the funnel, middle of the funnel, bottom of the funnel.

But that's something that we give away for free. And so, but because it's free, like it becomes interesting, right? So literally clickflow.com, you can pick that up if you, if, if you want to. Um, but that's how we look at this stuff.

And I'm sure you, that, that's how you look at Ubersuggest too. Yeah. And, and I believe it works really well. Um, Although I don't think it works as well as it used to because so many people build product now.

It is very competitive. It is much harder to get traction and noise than it used to be. Well, there's a lot of noise now in terms of just overall marketing. Yes.

say is is there are people on x that do a good job with their marketing and then some of their marketing like these little uh anthropic does a good job for example obviously they have a lot of reach clod like whenever they launch a new frontier model obviously there's going to be a lot of reach um but i saw this uh so i interviewed this guy matt van horn just to talk about loops and he launched a video talking about one of his new um one of his new uh products and uh it's like a this like it's called something it helps you make clis basically like command line interfaces and And that video got it got two or three million views or so.

And so I think if you do it well on Twitter, because Twitter doesn't penalize you for posting too much, you know, it can be really good for you. And especially if it's the right audience hanging out there. So I think it's fine. I think it's also if your product is novel, it tends to kind of help itself as well.

Again, when you look at OpenAI and Anthropik. Yeah. Question for you is what products are you creating this year that you'll end up using to leverage for marketing, if any, or like from a free perspective? The one I just mentioned.

So it'll be free? Yeah, it's free. And it's free. And then obviously, if you want to use it a lot more, there's going to be usage-based pricing. So yeah.

Cool. Yeah, you? By the way, you... We're not actually releasing any more product for free. I think we spend more time on doing organic marketing. When I say organic marketing, like press, getting awards, stuff like that, paying, sponsoring events.

And the other thing that we're still focusing a lot of time and energy on is just M&A because it's a great way to grow by just adding revenue. Yeah, it might be a little, I think where things are trending for me is everything's more AI implementation when people are reaching out right now. So it's AI implementation as it relates to marketing and revenue growth. So what works for me right now is it's dinners, it's definitely content.

So it's dinners, events, content, and events. I would say those are kind of the main drivers of our leads right now. And what's happening for all of our single brain clients that want marketing, we force them into single brain. We're saying, this is how we work now.

If you don't want to work this way, that's okay. You can go to another agency. We'll introduce you. So what that means is we're not going to get on calls with you all the time.

were more so, hey, here's single brain. You can talk to this agent whenever you want and you get your data pools, your reports, and you're actually going to work a lot faster. And they even said themselves, they're like, we actually don't want to talk to you that much. If the work is good, then we don't need to talk to you that much.

So we have a lot of these workflows. You're saying the customers are saying that? Yeah. I'm assuming more mid-market? Mid market, some, some enterprise to some enterprise.

Yeah. And so we just say like, this is the way we work. And then like, you actually end up getting better results anyway. And they're like, well, we like this.

This is different. Right. So that's how we work now. But to your, to your point, it is still mostly for me, you just mentioned for you, it's like events, awards, what else?

Events, awards, and events, sponsoring events and speaking at them, as well as holding our own small events, creating content like we're doing here, podcasting, other interviews, getting our team to speak more. So we're pushing hard on that. Yeah. Partnerships, that's a huge one for us.

So just hiring more people to ink out more partnerships. What else am I missing? I'm missing a few of them. But those are the big ones, I would say. And yeah, there's a lot of little things that we can do.

Be like, oh, let's go release more features in Ubersess and answer the public and release more for free and market it. But if I had to look at what really moves the needle, if I had to pick one thing, it's probably conferences. I think that moves the needle for us more than anything else. Because with a conference, you get actually not even a two-for-one.

You get like a three-for-one and a four-for-one. You know why? One, you get to speak. You get to sponsor. You also get to throw little side events as well.

So it's like a three-for-one. And it's amazing branding. So even if you don't pick up revenue, a lot of people hear your corporate brand and we found out to do well. The problem that we found with events is it's a really, really slow payback period.

Mm-hmm. Like you do not make, we do not make our money back in year one after spending the money. Are you speaking at HubSpot this year? Uh-uh. Me neither.

We got cut. I'm like, oh, dude, we're on your podcast network and we got cut. They're like, oh, we can do a panel. I'm like, I'm good. They changed the format.

Yeah. What do you mean they changed the format? They changed the whole concept. It went from inbound to unbound. So we're inbound, but we're not unbound.

I think so. Okay. Okay. All right. But you know what I think? Like, I think throwing your own conferences goes along with you. Go ahead. And if you look at the speakers, they're very different.

It's a lot of celebrities. Yes. Or well-known people, like famous people. Yeah. Usually they only have one. Okay, we should talk about this. Usually they have like one anchor celebrity or two anchor celebrities.

This time it's like six or seven or eight. I'm loading it up right now. Let's see if I can find the celebrities. Tom Brady? Tom Brady. Okay. Cynthia Erivo?

I don't know who that is. Sunita Williams? Yeah. Astronaut? TBN? Uh-huh. And the list goes on and on and on of just well-known people globally. It's just really...

It's big companies, I would say, or quite a few of them are big companies. But if I look at the majority of the speakers compared to previous years, it is a lot of their own team members. Which is cool. We should talk about this.

That's actually cool. I think that is more effective in the long run than bringing outside speakers if you're trying to actually generate revenue. Yeah. I think this whole concept of employee generated content, which is actually nothing new because when I first took over SingleGrain, we were doing that in the very beginning.

14 years ago, we were doing that, right? Everyone was kind of posting and we're all engaging on each other's things. Clay does this really well right now. So Clay does, I think Zapier kind of does this a little bit too, where everyone's kind of engaging with each other on LinkedIn and they're all kind of growing at the same time.

Um, I think it's good that if you throw an event and then you also have that happening there too, like who cares if you help someone build a brand and like, if they move on fine, but at the same time, if you're, you're, you're reaping the rewards of that, um, like, and you win a couple of deals from it, like it's, it's, it's, it's a good deal at the end of the day. And, uh, you know, people remember you for that. So yeah, like they have like the CMO of JP Morgan, uh, and quite a few other heavy hitters. Yeah.

But we can do a panel if you want. No, I'm good. Yeah, exactly. So not that there's, I just, I don't think there's anything wrong. There's nothing wrong with it.

It's just, it doesn't drive revenue. Exactly. That's why I say it's not for me because the thing is what the panel is like, you don't get remembered. You just blend into the crowd.

And you're just answering other people's questions. Like I just find that there's no point in speaking unless you can figure out how to drive revenue, whether it's direct or indirect. And I hate to be, you know,

I wouldn't say a prick about it, but like, I don't know, stuck out, picky. Real quick, if you want to acquire customers faster and more efficiently this year with the latest strategies and tactics, then check out singlegrain.com. That is my ad agency. Again, www.singlegrain.com.

Check it out. And if it seems like a fit, we'll get in touch and help you with a free marketing plan. um but i care for revenue and like they have great speakers like cmo of zoom right like they have a lot of amazing speakers and you know being honest i'm okay not speaking every year i haven't you know i spoke there for quite a few years before that there was a lot yeah it was four in a row and for us

i i've talked about this on previous podcasts the number one reason i spoke you want to guess why for branding for branding that's correct because we weren't picking up enterprise business from it i still think it's worth it though for branding because the stage in the audience is large we didn't pick up enterprise business from it but we did pick up a few clients that still are with us today from something i spoke at two years ago at uh inbound so that's that's what i can call out yeah not enterprise though i have not picked up customers from it it's they're probably too small for you to even remember

That's true. We could have picked up customers, but I would say great branding. And I think it's worth it for branding. There's another event that I would speak at for many, many years, RD Station.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like 7,000 people listening to your speech. Yeah. I think it's great branding. That's when I first started. This is funny.

When I first started speaking and then they put me in front of 5,000 people and I was so nervous. Remember I bombed it and Neil looked at me afterwards. It was just a funny time because I didn't get invited after that. so dude one of the times i spoke and i believe i'm pretty sure it was already stationed great company but um i spoke and you get to remember in brazil most people don't speak english at least in that audience but i'm pretty sure most people in brazil don't speak english because i've been there so many times

The audio went out. Oh, the translators. That's what you're saying. No, the audio, like the speakers. Oh, the whole thing. The whole thing. And the PowerPoint was still showing.

The clicker still worked. People couldn't hear me even in English. So not only could they not hear me in English, I had a yell. So then that way, the translators, people could hear the translators.

And like, you're talking about like five to 7,000 people. Yeah. My voice went out literally right after that. Good job on improvising. So here's what we'll say that's actionable for everyone here.

I think events are top because you're building a relationship with people and you can do multiple things when you go to the event. You can also host your own, like I'm hosting the YPO Global AI Summit, even though I said I would do no more events, but I am doing it because I'm also going to one of their side events as well, which is like a thousand people, right? So that's all worth it for me. It's funny because one of my YPO friends, he said, you didn't say this, but he said this.

He said, This one conference he goes to every year generates him multiple seven figures at the YPO thing. You should rejoin just for that. It's called the YPO Global Business Summit where you can do business with each other.

And he always finds a way to get like a multi-million dollars there. Um, so all that to say, like I do that, um, there's dinners next week, next week I'm speaking at two conferences in New York. I'm going to throw a dinner with AI operators on Tuesday. So you can do that as well.

So you could tie things to the things that you get invited to. And I would say, at least for me, when I first started speaking at things, 25 years old, I spoke to a room in front of 20 people that that was like, and I'm sure you started really small too. So it's okay guys to start small. Yes.

Dude, I agree with that. And I actually think it's better to start small than just go really big. I think it's just too expensive, too risky. But small and then expand from there can work out really well.

I have thoughts. So let me tell you, I was talking to one of our friends today. And then I was like, dude, there's a premium on like, what kind of multiple are you putting on AI pilled talent right now? So would you like me to explain that question to you?

Because I want to hear what your answer is. what multiple will we put on that ai what pill ai pilled talent so someone who is ai native let's say you're hiring like a marketing manager that would typically make 100 grand if someone comes into your company and say that they're they're super ai pilled they can do all these different things what multiple do you put on them no multiple 1.5x 2x 3x honestly we haven't put out any multiple or ever i haven't thought about it that way yeah

We hire people based on what we need, what they can provide, and then the negotiation is just based off of that. When I look at payment and how much it costs, because I'm assuming when you're talking about multiple, you're really looking at how much we're willing to spend for that multiple.

Meaning that you're putting a multiple on the salary, the original salary. Like 100, if you put a 1.5x, it becomes 150k. Are you even putting a premium on AI build talent? That's the real question.

We're not putting a premium on AI talent. We're putting a premium on all good talent, whether it's AI or non-AI. Let's use the example that someone is doing marketing and they can get 10 times more things done and the quality is just as good if better. I'm creating a hypothetical here.

i would be willing to pay for pay a lot more for that person on the same time if someone's can close five times the amount of sales and they're just a better closer and their metrics hold through when i say their metrics hold through like they didn't promise the world and under deliver like they didn't lie to close the deal they actually promised delivered well and we found that let's say uh their churn on the deals they closed were really low and they fell in line, I would pay a lot more for that sales rep. So we look at talent as forget AI native or not AI. We just look at talent as the more you can produce, the more you can earn.

It's that black and white for us. So the way I see it is, yes, it's a production thing, right? But I will also say that where we disagree now is because remember, we had a closer that was very experienced, right?

She started to struggle because she didn't start to pick up the AI stuff, right? When you're AI pilled, your relationship with change is really good. You're very adaptable. She didn't have a good relationship with change, nor was she adaptable, and she started to struggle.

So she struggled to kind of sell other products and services. She struggled to understand the other areas, and thus it was just kind of going downhill for her, right? Now, on the other side, I believe that if you're AI pilled, you love learning, you have a super biased action, right?

You're betting big on yourself and you're making these, you're super resilient as well because these things are hard to figure out. And so for us, the way I look at it right now, I was thinking about this and this led to my conversation with my friend this morning, but right now I'm probably putting a 1.5x on multiple, right? Because to your point, if you can do 10x more, not just 10x more, but quality, then you're worth it, right? Yeah.

And so- I think that's worth it. And that's why I think even with interns. So when I was talking to my friend this morning, he's like, dude, we start paying these interns like $20, $25 or so.

Within three to six months, they're making like a real salary, which is like unheard of before. Like you and I would have never gotten that when we're like 20 years old. Yeah, that's true. Yeah, we wouldn't.

And I also look at it as like, I don't care if they're an intern. I don't care if they're 50 years into their career. Good is good. Crap is crap. Yeah.

Yeah, it's a mindset thing. It has nothing to do with age. It has to do with your mind. It's all inside. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like whenever we used to speak at these masterminds or go to these masterminds, you'd hear the coaches always say it's all about the mindset.

Yes. But that part is true. That part is true. Yeah. The only part that I hate about mindsets and used to work with someone who's really big on mindset.

You did? You did. I did? In your old single growing day. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have a problem with mindset when it gets in the way of someone just doing logical things and just working.

Like some people have this whole concept of mindset and they're like, you just have to write mindset and you'll grow. Like you're just not thinking big enough. I'm like, okay, thinking bigger, having the right mindset doesn't guarantee success. I know so many people out there that are like...

uh they do something what is it called like a vision board oh yeah yeah yeah next year this is gonna happen yeah and i don't believe in the vision board concept and i know some people do and they will say like i'm gonna be on a magazine cover next year they end up getting on a magazine i know who you're talking about right and are they based in new york

Yes, they are. They used to be based in New York. Okay, got it, got it. Now they're in... Florida. Yes, yes. Okay. I don't want to let someone triangulate it, so that's why I didn't say the second part, but go ahead.

Okay. And I don't think these people are bad. They're amazing people. They're good people. What I'm getting at specifically with vision board, this is the part that people don't keep in their mind or they don't take into account.

If you constantly have this vision and you're writing it down, and you really want to achieve it, you're more likely to focus on it. Because you're focusing on it, it's more likely to come to fruition and come to reality.

That to me is effort. That has nothing to do with the vision board. You push harder on something, there's a higher chance you'll achieve the results versus if you don't push harder on it. It's like me saying, Eric, I want to be a really fast runner.

Right? I can write it on a vision board, but if I don't spend any time running over the next year, nothing is going to happen. Yeah. It's, uh, the vision board is perceived progress.

You know why? Yes. You, you spend all the time doing it and you put it up there and you don't do anything with it. Right. Like, and so what I would say is this, um, I look at, so I have these statues of Warren Buffett and I have a statue of a Charlie Munger, for example.

Um, They remind me to be patient because whenever I look at them, I think about all the learnings, like all the readings I've done. Like that's helpful, right? So if you're using a vision board to constantly remind you, that's helpful.

I will say this. Every morning, Neil, I've been writing in this five-minute journal. Shout out to five-minute journal. I've been doing it since I was 28 years old, since this girlfriend broke up with me because she cheated on me.

So she got to do both. But all that to say, I started doing, so I had a goal when I was 37 years old. The goal, you know what it was? I write it every day.

I've been writing since I was 37. What do you think it is? Your goal? Yeah. Just keep building a bigger business. Nope. So the goal was, I will have, I write this every morning, I will have two kids by the time I'm 42.

Guys, I'm 40 now. So if you don't put the effort into it, Neil, it doesn't matter. So to your point, I'm just writing it down. And shout out to 5-Minute Journal still, but it doesn't happen unless you make it happen.

So now I would have to have twins. That's the only way to get there. or i guess there's other ways too but yeah uh if you do like ivf i think there's a higher chance to twins i'm not saying you should do it but i think that's what happens yeah yeah but anyway no but part of it was a bigger business too so anyway all that to say is i don't even know how we got to vision boarding but um i i by the way i like this format more you know why i i today's topics they all came from a skill that i use called the last 30 days on the top marketing topics but it's allowing us to move around fluidly yeah So anyway, that's it for today.

We'll talk to you later. Goodbye.